An analysis of recent trends in the Irish rental market

Joan Burton, Minister for Social Protection

9th Feb 2012

Joan Burton is Minister for Social Protection and Labour Party TD for Dublin West.

Latest rent figures show importance of reviewing rental supplement

Nationally rents have remained notably stable for the last twelve months. Indeed, rents have stabilised as far back as December 2009, with little change since that date. This quarter under review mirrors this trend. As previous quarterly reports have shown, national rent indices still appear to mask a rural/urban split within the Irish rental market, with rural prices continuing to fall, albeit at a slow pace, and these falls being offset by increasing rents in urban areas. Similarly, the stock of available properties available for rent continues to fall. In January, the total number of rental properties stood at 16,023 (v 16,932 January 2011); a 5.7% decline on the previous year's levels.

Against this backdrop of stabilized rents is the continued fall in house prices, with no reliable forecast for the bottoming of the private residential market. Even the more optimistic forecasts still predict further house price falls in 2012. One might expect that rents and prices would move together - and that was certainly the case between 2007 and 2009. However, housing bubbles involve prices getting out of line with underlying rents, so a necessary part of the correction when a bubble ends is that rents stabilise or increase, while house asking prices fall further.

The issue of rents stabilising since December 2009, given the deterioration in both net disposable incomes and employment opportunities, does pose the question as to whether an element of this relates to the pricing floors available to landlords in the form of rent supplement limits. It is essential that rents are allowed to stabilise from a natural balance of supply and demand, rather than as a result of a price floor funded by the taxpayer.

Rental Index

The State plays a major role in the private rental market through the Rent Supplement scheme. Rent Supplement provides short-term income support to eligible people living in private rented accommodation, whose means are insufficient to meet their accommodation costs and who do not have accommodation available to them from any other source. The vast majority of these people are unemployed or working on a part-time basis.

Since 2005, rent supplement expenditure has increased from €369 million to some €503 million in 2011. The number of people claiming the allowance increased from almost 60,200 in 2005 to over 96,800 at end 2011, a 61% increase. In terms of overall share in the market, rent supplement accounts for approximately 40% of the private rental market. It is essential, therefore, that State support for rents are kept under review, reflect current market conditions and do not distort the market in a way that could increase rent prices for others, such as low paid workers and students.

It should be stressed that the rent supplement scheme is not designed to be a housing solution, but only a temporary income support whilst temporarily unemployed. However, during the last few years of this unprecedented economic crisis, more and more people have become long-term dependent on the supplement, with now over 55,000 people on the scheme for 18 months or more.

Rent supplement costs are managed by reviewing and setting maximum rent limits for each county, with the premise that there is adequate supply at or below these levels whilst at the same time ensuring that persons in full-time employment, especially those on low incomes, can enter the private rental market and secure accommodation in their preferred area of choice. Over the last two rent limit reviews, carried out in June 2010 and December 2011, the Department of Social Protection has: aligned maximum rent limits to reflect local market conditions at a county level; and, especially in the last review, further aligned maximum limits to reflect availability in each county for those seeking rent supplement support.

Since the June 2010 review, rental values have stabilised at or near the maximum rent limits in place nationally. The following table presents maximum rent limits as a percentage of asking rates for rents on a provincial basis with Dublin shown separately.

Bed Sit/
1 Bed Apartment
Couple
2 Bed Accommodation
Couple / 1 Parent Child
2/3 Bed Accommodation
Couple with 2 Kids
3 Bed Accommodation
Couple with 3 Children
Dublin 101% 91% 88% 92%
Rest of Leinster 106% 104% 99% 102%
Munster 104% 101% 99% 103%
Connaught-Ulster 106% 103% 92% 94%

The table shows that, provincially, excluding Dublin, the current maximum rent limits for 2 bedroom accommodation units are higher than the current asking average rate advertised within the market. In other words, maximum rent limits are too high based on prevailing market advertised rate averages.

Dublin average rents are, excluding single-roomed accommodation, higher than rent limits set by the Department. However, it should be noted that the above table considers maximum limits as a percentage of average rents which includes: high-end socio-economic areas; penthouses; detached residences etc. Once these are excluded, and focusing on availability there is scope for reductions for all categories, including Dublin.

The conclusion from this analysis was that maximum limits were still too high, and were in large part, acting as a floor for landlords in their dealings with rent supplement tenancies and non-rent supplement tenancies alike. This has raised the obvious issue of persons in employment competing directly with those on rent supplement. Similarly, this probably explains, to some degree, the stabilising rent levels since December 2009. It is hoped that the recent rent review will not only bring about savings to the Exchequer, but also have a positive impact on those working and renting, at the same time ensuring that rent supplement tenants are suitably housed.

The experience of the previous review showed that landlords, generally, accepted the revised limits, with no case of homelessness or undue hardship reported by rent supplement tenants. It is accepted that there will be isolated cases after this review, where landlords will refuse to reduce the rent they seek, and in those instances tenants will be expected to secure alternative accommodation. Such applicants will be afforded reasonable time periods to secure new accommodation. Department officials administering rent supplement will continue to ensure that the rent supplement recipients' accommodation needs are met. There will be no incidence of homelessness due to these changes.

I would like to acknowledge the contribution that landlords have made in cooperating with my Department, providing accommodation to rent supplement eligible tenants, especially over the last few years.

I am confident that this rent limit review has maintained the balance of ensuring that rent supplemented accommodation is available to those seeking temporary income support for their accommodation and is helping to ensure that working families, especially those in low paid employment, are not priced out of the market.


HIGHLIGHTS:

Rental Index
Rental Price Index

Stock and flow of properties
Stock and Flow of Rental Properties


SNAPSHOT:

Snapshot of Asking Rental Prices Nationwide
Snapshot of Rents Nationwide

Discuss This Article

  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @02:13AM

    I think these official figures are a nonsense.

    Most of the people I know who are on rent allowance approached their landlords when the rent allowance thresholds were reduced, to be told that the landlord would put the official amounts on the rent receipts and the balance would be paid and not included on the official rent receipt. Some people even had their rents increased and were told that, despite living in their accommodation for periods of up to 5 years, they would have to leave, if they were not willing to comply.

    On top of this, there is the issue of "finders fees" in a number of communities. People find a property for others from their own country and negotiate with the landlord on their behalf. The tenants are then advised by the finder that in order to secure and retain the accommodation, they must pay a weekly sum to the finder. This can be from €10-25 per week. It is paid in cash to the finder with no receipts given.

    (This situation also pertains to employment, where jobs are found and are secured in the same way with a figure of usually 10% of the wage being paid in this way to the finder).

    There is also an issue with private electricity slot meters installed by landlords.

    I know of situations where meters are loaded to the extent that a one bedroomed flat is costing €20 per week just for lights, fridge, tv, kettle, toaster, microwave - not cooking stove as this is gas. On top of this, washing and drying of laundry is on a separate meter and costs on average €6 per load. Showers/baths are also separately metered and cost €2 for a tank of water.

    Landlords are also charging "service charges" - for example €20 per week divided between 4 flats to mow the lawns an tidy the garden, despite tenants offering to do this themselves.

    So for a one bedroom flat, a tenant can be paying up to another €20 over the official threshold to the landlord and a further €10 to a finder. The electricity can cost €40 per week (including 1 load of laundry and a daily shower). Add to this a further €5 for "service charges". It is rare for landlords to give receipts for the amounts taken from these slot meters.

    Some of these flats need to be seen to be believed! Some Landlords are happy to take money from tenants but much slower to do repairs or deal with antisocial behavior from tenants in multi-occupancy dwellings, causing great disturbance to those all around them.

    Until there is some official form of inspection upon which rents are set, these abuses will continue, and escalate, as while rent supplements continue to reduce, landlords will continue to demand excess payments on top of the official amounts. Despite the efforts of organisations like Threshold, these abuses seem to be rampant, especially in city ares where demand for accommodation is high.

    There is also an issue of rents being advertised at a monthly figure - eg €400 per month - and then the landlord collects the amount weekly, stating that the €400 per month equates to €100 per week.

    A rent of €400 per month equates to €4,800 per annum.
    In reality €100 is collected weekly which equates to between €5,200 and €5,300 per annum.

    Reducing rent supplement seems to do nothing but increase an extremely hidden level of poverty, which people are afraid to discuss with Community Welfare Officers as they know it puts them at risk of losing their (scarce to find) existing accommodation.

    Tenancy protection legislation and regulated fixed rents based on inspections must be brought in and implemented urgently to relieve this hidden poverty.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @08:02AM

    Well written article. However, rent supplement is still too high. The fact remains that high rent supplements in the past, encouraged and inflated house prices. A nice safety for landlords if the private rental market was under some pressure. It's a legacy from previous governments of cronyism, the whole property scam was to benefit the older else tidy class. It should never have happened.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Thebuggermom Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @09:27AM

    I am currently a recipient of the rent supplement and at the moment I am finding it difficult to find properties that are within my allocated rent supplement allowance. While I wholly commend the work that the Comunity Welfare officers do as I would not be able to afford rent for my family on my own I find that the prices of rent in my area are not reflected in the rates that are set for my county. At the moment I am restricted to the same area and there is an awful lot of paperwork to do in order to transfer to the county area and it seems that setting rates per county can be a little biased as obviously living in a major town area the rent prices are going to be significantly higher than in country areas. I have heard of quite a few people who would get a three or four bedroomed house in a rural area as someone else a two bedroomed apartment in a urban area.

    I simply think that the rates should be set per area as opposed to per county and I think that this would actually make a huge saving for the government in the long run as well as allowing people to access better suited accomodation in their area.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: annette quinn Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @09:37AM

    why is so much money been paid to these landlords ,when that money could be use to get the empty houses sorted out rent to the people and the rent going to the groverment instead. my daughter is on the housing list eight years with not a hope of getting a house . thegorverment pay her landlord at least 10,000 a year so please tell me what is right with this

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @10:15AM

    Go Joan go.......!!!!
    Rental accomadation is both massively overpriced in dublin city centre and of
    very low quality.
    Rent supplement reductions is not the absolute answer to this problem. However it should have the effect of
    a) putting pressure on welfare receipents that there isnt an endless pot of gold to keep them in private housing and
    b) that if landlords want to hold on to good rents, they will need to substantally and properly invest in their rental property.
    the tax payers wins both ways.
    well done joan

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Victor Meldrew Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @10:40AM

    Wow, another well put together Daft report and already the anti landlord comments are coming in! A couple of facts from a cruel heartless landlord who gets a kick out of riding up on his horse and threatening his tenants with eviction notices/ burning at the stake if they don't pay increased rent:

    Rents are down at least 40% from peak. Have rent allowances, income supplements, confirmation allowances, 'back to work' Fas scheme allowances, childrens allowances and any other form of social welfare dropped by that amount? Eh no.

    And your dead right, the figures are not accurate as they are based on asking prices. The real figures are much lower than that as there is so much supply on the market, at the moment. Its called supply and demand. Simple economics.

    Supply > demand = tenants negotiating hard for lower rental prices and rightly so.
    Demand > supply = rising prices and tenants whinging and moaning and forgetting about the cheap rent they have had for years and forgetting to put the surplus cash they were saving by not buying aside for the rainy day which inevitably happens.


    As regards paying your monthly rent on a weekly basis, there is not, there never was and I promise you that there never will be 4 weeks in a month. If people are having difficulty with that then we have problems! 52 / 12 = 4.33! Next time your in Tescos purchasing some 80c a bottle Miller before you get robbed by doing the rest of your shopping there, you might think of picking up a calculator as well. Maybe a little less X factor/ tallaghtfornia/ Irelands finest daily the Star/ gazing at Facebook in your pijamas and a little more cop on.

    If you dont like the flat/ house your in, move. Theres loads of choice out there, maybe not in the EXACT location you require but you cant have it every way. If you dont like the job your in, either get a new one/ emigrate/ put up with it.

    Also rent supplements have little or no impact on the property market. Im all for getting rid of them or at least have major reform in this area. The property boom was caused by a combination of cheap available credit thrown at people by the banks, generous tax incentives and people believing the boom would go on forever.

    Right, now thats off my chest, Im riding off on my trusty steed to pay the PRTB charges, Household tax, NPPR tax, septic tank tax.....

    VM

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: John Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @10:55AM

    I find it amazing how on the one hand the Department of Social Welfare can interfere in the Rental market and cut rent supplement 3 times in in the last number of years and then on the other hand bring in local authority charges per unit (NPPR & HOUSEHOLD charges ) not allow the tenant to pay i.e user pays. Something has to give here, this is unacceptable with the continuing erosion of income for Landlords providing a service that the State should be providing !! There is a complete misunderstanding by mandarins in the Dept of social welfare of the pressures that people providing this accomodation is under, we are considered any easy touch by Government, and it has to stop! They are going to drive more into insolvency if they keep this up

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: VM Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @02:30PM

    Your landlord needs his/her head tested and the state have not been lining the pockets of landlords for years. The state have been throwing money away for years. Removing rent supplement would make little or no difference to rents on good quality houses over the long term where there still would be a demand for housing.
    If a house has a sensible rent on it and it is in good condition it will be rented and thats coming from a landlord. I rarely have an empty property and when they do become vacant, are rented quickly. And Im not giving them away either.

    I have never taken a penny from the state, either in rent supplement or any form of social welfare. I think childrens allowance is a joke and rent supplement/ social welfare over the long term is crazy. If you(and your family) are physically and mentally fit you do not need any form of long term social welfare.

    And by the way, whether we like it or not, rents are on the way up. Dont say you havent been warned!

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @09:50PM

    Rent supplement was not intended as a long term support - there has been a failure in housing policy both during the boom with ridiculous prices and a lack of local authority housing.

    As for your other comments - there are many people who are physically and mentally fit but who cannot get employment - the 14% unemployment rate is a piece of fiction. Perhaps you can take out your calculator and check it out!

    Finally, there is no doubt that landlords have been as greedy as they'll get away with! There are well heeled landlords with no debt who are doing well, but there are many landlords who bought "investment" properties during the boom and now have mortgages which far exceed the rental rates. Further reductions in rent will be the straw that break the camel's back for many of these people.

    I'm all for making the social welfare system more efficient and saving money but alternatives must be put in place before cuts are made and people are left in precarious situations.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Me Date: Tuesday March 27, 2012 @08:59PM

    Where's your rainy day money?

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: AG Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @11:04AM

    I recently asked my landlord for a rent reduction from 650pm to 600pm. He refused so I am moving.
    The exact same house next door (which he also owns) has been empty for over a year.

    I'm not sure if some landlords live in the real world at all.

    Cost of living has increased so much (electricity, home heating oil etc) that the cost of running a house is much higher than it used to be. Combine that with reduced income(even those working have less income because of taxs and charges) and people cannot afford to pay the rents they had been paying.

    And yet some landlords would rather leave a house idle with no income on it for 12+months than take a reduction of 600 per annum.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Teresa Davis Date: Saturday March 24, 2012 @08:54AM

    Good on ya, pity you couldn't get a house on the same road for the 600, really show your landlord.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Karl Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @11:30AM

    It's an unfunny joke that the biggest private tenant in this country is the state. The situation was allowed to develop where people are on the rent supplement long-term, and the state is lining the pockets of private landlords for years.

    Obviously this leads to imbalances where those who do not have the state paying their rent for them are at a disadvantage in a market where the state is willing to pay up to or more than the going rate.

    The government is obliged to put a roof over someone's head. It is not obliged to do this in the area the tenant would prefer. If the government got a little bit tougher on obliging each and every person on rent supplement, and offered them accommodation on a take it or leave it basis of what is available at the least cost to the state, more people might feel compelled to get an income and pay their own way.

    At the moment, there is simply too much incentive to stay on the dole and have the rent paid for in the area you like.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Yields or Bust Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @01:32PM

    @All


    Despite Daft.ie producing the most important number on a quarterly basis in respect of the housing market in the RoI the media once again fail to appreciate its importance to the wider negative equity/mortgage disaster that is Ireland today.

    That number is the average rental yield for the market as a whole, which Daft.ie now calculate at 5.1% for the q4 in 2011.

    Believe me when I say this is the ONLY number (with minor adjustments) that property watchers the CBI and Govt should be watching.

    I suggested on this site c3 years ago that this is the number policy makers should pay particular heed to and yet the CBI in its PCAR document made NO references to rental yields in that document and lo and behold its assumptions regarding peak to trough losses in house prices and consequent loan losses for covered banks are beginning to look wildly optimistic - which they are.

    Here's the very basic maths of the Irish average house price expected falls from PTT.

    Daft.ie house prices peak rental yields - recorded in June 2007 at 3.1% if memory serves.

    3.1% was an asking yield back in June 2007. Ronan Lyons recently calculated that the discount from asking prices both for rents and house prices on Daft.ie averaged about c7%.

    Taking a 7% discount would suggest the contracted yield at peak was c93% of 3.1% i.e. 2.88%.

    Now 2.88% is a Gross yield - the net yield equivalent is normally derived by taking 11/12ths of this number i.e. 2.88% *11/12 = 2.64%.

    So in reality peak net yields were in fact 2.64% per Daft.ie - (By the way this is simply a crazy return on a risky asset class when in June 2007 a 10 year German Bund (risk free investment) was yielding just over 3.5% i.e. 32% of additional returns over and above the average net return on Irish resi property for taking no risk !!! )

    Anyway to right size the peak returns at 2.64% back to today’s levels and see how far property prices have to fall to achieve this its necessary to adjust this number for the fall in nominal rents since the peak. Per the Daft.ie rental index above average rents have fallen 25.8% from the peak.

    Adjusting the 2.64% by 25.8% gives a number as follows: 2.64%* (100%-25.8%) = 1.95%

    Now the 1.95% number has to get back to its long run average for Irish residential housing of 7% before house prices are back in the land of the normals. This problem with a 7% long run average net rental yield is that it has been the fall out number when supply and demand were usually in some sort of reasonable balance. We don't have that today with thousands of houses and apartments sitting idle - in fact in Dublin where demand it highest and supply supposedly constrained where are yields? Well in fact asking yields per this report indicates in the centre of Dublin average asking yields are now 8.1% and adjust this back to contracted yields (7%) discount and 11/12ths the result suggest a net yield of 6.9% - and this is before the effects of rent supplement adjustments and ongoing austerity. In simple language the average yield is going to go significantly higher than the long run average of 7% I’d suggest closer to 9% when the dust finally settles.

    So using a 9% yield, the average PTT fall will be of the order of (9%- 1.95%)/9% = 78%.

    Now 78% compares with the CBIs PCAR worst-case scenario of 59% PTT falls. A 78% fall would actually mean the CBI is 32% out on their worst-case scenario i.e. (78%-59%)/59%. Not great when you’ve paid €30m to consultants to calculate the number for you.

    Bottom line folks is that the rental yield number is the ONLY number anyone should concern themselves with looking at this disaster and sadly the PCAR document published and used by the CBI/Govt et al doesn’t event mention the words ‘rental yield’ – and we wonder why we’re f*%£ed.

    A 78% to 80% fall in house prices from the peak in 2007 would have house prices back to mid 1990 levels thereby wiping from memory ALL the house price inflation the country has seen since 1994.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @09:39PM

    I'm inclined to agree - unfortunately - this Government seems intent on hitting the most vulnerable. There are definitely aspects of the social welfare system that require reform - the rent supplement scheme being one - but the policy of reforming via cuts is the wrong way to go.

    There are thousands of residential units vacant - why are the local authorities not leasing these from NAMA or the owners? It seems local authorities are utterly inefficient, are definitely not proactive and are just happy to doddle along emeshed in bureacracy, rules and regulations.

    It seems totally futile to expect anything remotely innovative or proactive from the Irish civil or public service - which is really unfortunate given their pay rates and the need for reform.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @04:31PM

    Joan burton is delighted to cut everything , raise taxes and keep Ireland in permanent austerity. Let's make sure her and her party never get voted in again.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: NAMAwinelake Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @06:21PM

    Well done to DAFT for spending the time and money on what is the most comprehensive survey of asking residential rents. And well done to Minister Burton for coming on here to explain the background to the recent changes - cuts, mostly - to rent allowance, and I hope she gets to read the comments.

    As regards the supply of rental property, it seems from the chart above that we are back at January 2011 levels, and even though you might expect rental property supply to drop as buyers opt to rent rather than see a purchase decline by another 20%, perhaps, it seems that supply levels are holding up,.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Boom or Explosion Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @07:05PM

    Joan Burton is an oasis in a desert of incompetent politicians. Well done And keep up the good work. I wish I could vote for you. Keep cutting the rent allowance.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @09:05PM

    Looking at the snapshot of rents in the table above it strikes me that there is a huge difference between rent supplement limits and the rents for one bedroom flats in Dublin - €475 is the limit and the average rent seems to be €700.

    In the Dublin commuter counties the rents for a one bedroom are running at €545 and the rent supplement limit is about €400 - depending on the county.

    Is the Minister and her Department suggesting that Landlords are going to reduce rents by 32% in Dublin and 26% in the commuter counties?

    There is the also the issue that rents have actually started to increase and many landlords do not accept rent supplement tenants - I'd be interested to see what % of the available stock accepts rent supplement. Basically if a landlord can secure a non rent supplement tenant they will always favour this option.

    The RAS is not working either. Because many properties are let through letting agents, the agents won't cooperate with local authorities because it's not in their interest to do so, commercially.

    The rent supplement system is not fit for purpose. It was introduced as a short term fix but it has become, for many, an ongoing, longterm measure. The local authorities and housing section of the DOE are totally at sea when it comes to the housing issue. That there is a considerable stock of vacant properties while thousands are in rent accommodation - often of a poor standard - seem perverse.

    Many tenants on rent supplement are not in a postion to bargain aggresively with their landlords. If they have to move, many cannot come up with the deposit and month's advance rent that is required to secure alternative accommodation. The vast majority of shared accommodation adverts do not want rent supplement house mates. If families have to move it is a major upheaval for children, schools, etc.

    As some other poster has said here, what is going to happen is that tenants will report a rent amount in line with the limits while paying the landlord the balance from their social welfare, pushing them further into poverty.

    I agree that rent supplement should not be keeping rents artificially high but I really think the Ministers who are responsible need to start looking at viable alternatives so that rent supplement reverts to the short terms stop gap measure it was originally intended to be.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Sam Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @09:14PM

    I and my family have been in receipt of Rent Allowance sadly for sometime, and it has been a blessing. I could not believe the local Community Welfare officer when he said that I had to either ask my landlord to reduce my rent to 375 euro a month from 450 euro a month, or I had to find a property that was within the limit.

    I have lived in "my home" for nearly four years and have been very happy here. We are lucky to live in a lovely area, with good schools for my two children nearby. I would not want to move, but I would also not be able to move and stay in the same area of North Leitrim as there are no three bedroom houses for this amount of rent! They say there would be no cases of homelessness, how can this be the case! If there are no landlords willing to reduce the prices, there will be no homes for folk in the areas which they live. If you can spare a moment or two while on this website just check the amount of three bedroomed houses for rent in Manorhamilton or surrounding areas for 375 euro. There are very few so it won't take you long!

    I am one of the lucky ones my landlord is not money grabbing and is happy to have someone in her property, who pays the rent regularly and keeps the place in good order! She was willing to reduce the rent, and promptly arranged for new contracts to be drawn up, so as the forms could be completed and returned as soon as possible.

    I honestly can say I am very fortunate, and my heart goes out to anyone who is forced to move house, sometimes to a different area.

    My plea is that these rates are seriously considered by landlords when they are looking to rent out a property. Surely it is better to have someone in your empty rental property than it be left in some cases un-heated and cold.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Irish in Amsterdam Date: Wednesday February 15, 2012 @10:59PM

    Was interesting to read Sam's post as to me (an Irish emmigrant from '87) it highlights an Irish sense of entitlement well beyond the means their means or the state's pay!

    Let me say at the outset, I'm glad Sam has been able to keep is house with a landlord willing to reduce the price.

    However if I follow the logic, he and probably his partner with their 2 kids NEED a 3 bedroom house - this seems to be the invariant - what ever the rents or the available income, the space required - and thus the "standard of living" shouldn't change.

    Many families in Amsterdam and elswhere across in Europe (I've lived in several) where one or both parents are working (including in my own case) manage fine with more than one child per bedroom. It is possible and the children don't grow extra limbs!

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Nostromartus Date: Tuesday February 28, 2012 @10:20PM

    Are you seriously comparing properties in North Leitrim to Amsterdam or any other European city?

    Perhaps you've been away too long, during the boom a corruption of government policy and tax incentives allowed developers build houses meant to accommodate those on lower incomes in areas where there was no demand, Leitrim has a housing surplus of 401%. Driving through the county is like visiting some apocolyptic movie set filled with abandoned estates.

    With this kind of oversupply landlords should be happy with any token rent and yet sam struggled to find a landlord willing to accept 375 euro, it just goes to show how unrealistic their expectations are and how insulated the majority are from recession by government policy.

    A percentage of housing built every year should have been allocated for social housing, at least taxes paid during the boom would have provided a long term solution to homelessness and would have dampened the worst excesses of the property bubble, deflating it before the creation of the negative equity group.

    Government policy has represented a landlord class for too long and bankrupted the country, with huge stock oversupplies and a collapsed market councils should be purchasing ghost estates for social housing rather than allow them become death traps for toddlers like last week, it was an accident waiting to happen, there are abandoned sites throughout the country many of which are in major cities, like the opera centre in Limerick.

    Amsterdam has one of the highest population concentrations in Europe but like many european cities it has an excellent transport system , it has an unemployment rate of between 5-6% , close to our boom rate,which would increase rents. Market forces dictate your living conditions, state policy focused on a transport system that improved all its citizens quality of life, allowing even the low paid an efficient safe bicycle network to allow them affordable efficient access to work.

    In Ireland we have a system of cronyism that ensured socialism for the rich,car dealers were supported with a slush fund called a scrappage scheme while the country was drowning in debt, how does government incentivised debt improve our transport system for everyone. Anyone trying to cycle to work in Ireland is risking their life in any city because the infrastructure doesn't support it.

    NAMA is withholding properties decreasing population concentration which artifically distorts(it might inflat rents in the short term in major cities) the market and undermines what little transport system we have. Families are forced into the suburbs and the unemployed are forced to move to commuter belts, market forces should reduce rents by up to 90%, but landlords just collectively tailor their rents to unrealistic levels because we haven't had a property tax until recently.

    In the Netherlnds a Property tax (Dutch: Onroerendezaakbelasting (OZB)) is levied on homes on a municipal basis in two parts: for the one who lives in the house, and for the owner of the house. Those with a rental home are liable only for the living part of the tax.
    This kind of sustainable tax built up over time levied on all it's citizens( unlike stamp duty which was a windfall tax on one demographic)allowed the dutch government invest in alternative sustainable transport systems which compensates the users in transportation costs while a planned concentrated density housing system reduced travel times and property sizes to maximise the systems efficientcy.

    My point is the reason people live in smaller apartments in Europe is because their cities are planned that way, supported by all the facilities needed and laws that ensure tenants have rights that are enforced.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Friday March 2, 2012 @10:11AM

    I agree with your post re: the possibility of sharing rooms but families with five and six people are not all living in 5 and 6 bedroom semi-detached houses so that expectation is certainly not the norm. Why people assume however that housing is some virtually unattainable struggle that must be worked continuously to achieve across decades but never truly owned - as it will be subject to a tax (which provides no service) is beyond me. We the people, (remember that one) own this country, lock, stock and barrel. Why do we have to buy space to live in it??.....subject to tax??? Secondly the insane practice of using materials far beyond our requirements has made housing merely an instrument for injecting debt into the economy. Eskimos can live in igloos, bedouins in tents but peoples in highly developed and 'educated' societies require bulldozer proof abodes that will outlive them with a proportion of the mortgage being bestowed after tax on surviving family, the rest having paid to bondholders of one kind or another. People don't need walls, they require weather proof living space.......its time to think beyond housing norms given the technologies available.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Nostromartus Date: Saturday March 3, 2012 @09:08PM

    The average number s of children in Ireland is 2.1, the reason most people in Ireland buy or look for a 3 bedroom house is in preparation for that size of family. If you sign up to a 30 year mortgages( which were criminal mistakes promoted by false demand and misleading marketing).

    Toddlers might be fine to share a room,but forcing an awkward teenage brother and sister to share a room might be considered cruel and unusual punishment, that's the future most families are preparing for when looking at purchasing or renting a three bedroom house.

    The property tax is a far better tool for providing funds to maintain public works for the benefit of the community(the people), it also forces better use of long term structures, a retired couple living on a pension would be forced to downsize to a smaller house or village setting to maintain their standard of living, thereby providing a constant supply of 3 bedroom houses close to work for first time buyers.

    With a little planning ghost estates and villages with surplus apartments could become retirement havens away from busy cities. Every seaside town in Ireland would be like Florida and empty holiday homes would be occupied 12 months a year instead of 2 weeks. Maintaining these retirement havens would boost the local economy, a program could be set up to encourage single mothers to move to these areas for council houses and part-time jobs to supplement their benefits. An exemption from property tax for the over 65's who agree to move to designated areas/houses(no new one off houses), would buy some votes and solve some problems of delivering greater services to cities.

    We have an ageing population we shoud be planning for now, centralising geriatric care close these towns with a system of visiting nurses for the terminally ill could free up beds in major hospitals for emergency cases.

    Tax incentives during the boom encouraged concentrating housing in villages or towns, most of these properties are vacant and cost councils money to service and maintain. Vested interests argue surplus properties should be knocked to recreate false demand learning nothing from the bubble, not all ghost estates were built in Leitrim or in the middle of nowhere, by knocking properties held by Nama or those unfinished apartments complexes you increase commute times,reduce choice and force tenants into substandard accommodation unregulated by the state. Limiting rent supplement to 390 euro which as Sam and others point out only forces tenants to pay more out of their dole towards rent and puts no pressure on Landlords who are not tax complient or Landlords who don't maintain their properties.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Wednesday March 7, 2012 @01:13AM

    Property tax is alien to a republic as is paying for water (as a stepping stone to a criminal and permanently deflationary privatisation) and I don't care what slaves in other countries have signed up for, leave them to their folly. Driving old people out of their homes and communities with taxes has to be one of the most vicious or poorly thought out 'megaplans' I have heard to date....casting them off into the eternal darkness of our north west atlantic winters. It is never Florida in Lahinch or Donegal in winter and given that it is the elderly who mostly require our health services it would require a massive investment in health services and doctor numbers (probably have enough nurses), not merely in the cattle pens that pass for nursing homes in this country. I'm all for an improvement in the demographic spread in the population but the rampant skewing of market forces against selected sectors of society in so-called liberal democracies is no less a tyranny than the edicts and dictats of centrally controlled totalitarian states.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: John Phelan Date: Tuesday March 27, 2012 @03:30PM

    You actually make sense.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Thursday February 9, 2012 @11:34PM

    I to am on rent allowance at the minute I live in a rural area so they say yet its not to far away from Dublin and the rates for rental property is high with these new rates I will only be allowed to rent a house if the price is 550 a month or less for a two bed house now I've never seeing any house around my area for that sort of money also I have two kids one to a previous relationship I already have to say that my rent is lower than it is just to keep a roof over my head and struggle every week I think dart are wrong here big time I would like t

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Friday February 10, 2012 @12:02PM

    Well done DAFT.IE for giving the Minister who wanted to abolish Section 23 reliefs completely (which according to Minister Noonan yesterday would have crippled the property market completely) another platform/opportunity to reduce your clients(LANDLORDS) income who in turn provide the income for DAFT.IE to exist.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: AL Date: Friday February 10, 2012 @05:11PM

    I am on rental allowance now for 5 years and I am glad that they did not cut it too much because I do not want to be inconvenienced by having to look for a cheaper place or consider moving to an area that I might not like.

    Thanks Joan for keeping a roof over my head at no cost to myself.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Mike Date: Monday February 13, 2012 @02:54AM

    The bottom line is that the daft.ie snapshot shows that the average rent for ANY part of Dublin is > than 700 euro for a single bedroom versus a rent supplement max of 475 and nowhere less than 800 euro despite a max supplement of 300 euro for shared accommodation.
    These FACTS only encourages many people to break the law in this regard as their situation is clearly unsustainable. Joan Bruton, by reducing rent supplements to these absurd levels, as a labor minister should be ashamed of herself for the stress she is putting on people who do not have the facility to change their circumstances.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: jimaneejeebus Date: Sunday February 19, 2012 @11:35PM

    Joan...the table you reference is completely made up. Did you make this up? If so you are lying to everyone....


    There is a huge gap between maximum rent limits and average asking prices.
    For instance the average asking price for a 1 bed in Cork city is €608. The maximum threshold for rent supplement in cork city is €450..

    Dublin is even worse with average asking prices of c. €800 for a one bed with a rent threshold of €475

    Lies lies lies.

    Sources...figures 2 & 3 this page
    and
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/rent_supplement.html

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: jimaneejeebus Date: Sunday February 19, 2012 @11:46PM

    Another misnomer is the one that "because nobody is buying houses, there are a lot more people renting and therefore they are propping up the rental market"

    Where did these extra tenants come from? The streets?
    There are no extra people renting. There are in fact a lot less people renting because of 1- People deciding to move in with parents/family members 2-the astronomical amounts of people leaving.

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  • Hi there!

    Posted By: tours to st petersburg russia Date: Tuesday February 21, 2012 @03:28AM

    I am totally delighted with strong your blog greatly that saved me. God bless you “The best jokes are dangerous, and dangerous because they are in some way truthful.” - Kurt Vonnegut

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Anonymous Poster Date: Tuesday February 21, 2012 @12:34PM

    Hi I rented a room in Galway and now the landlord is refusing to give back my deposit as I am moving out and I gave him 3 weeks notice
    His reason was he needs to keep the money for bills!!
    I asked to him to request a bills from E.S.B and the Gas company and when I rang them they said thats no problem they will send out a bill for the months I need why is he acting like this it is so annoying I am trying my best to come up with a solution and he keeps knocking them!!

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: JOY Date: Saturday February 25, 2012 @08:47AM

    Very correct

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: pat Date: Thursday March 8, 2012 @11:46PM

    an average house should be less than 100K

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Hardworking Landlord Date: Sunday March 11, 2012 @03:24PM

    I am a landlord of two properties, purchased at the peak and using my hard earned money, diligently saved over a number of years. I am now in negative equity in both homes, so in effect I owe the Bank! I have been forced to reduce my rent to comply with this new legislation to a figure that only pays the interest on the mortgage and therefore nothing is paid off from the actual mortgage. I am subsidising the Government! How is this fair??? I cannot sell, I cannot get enough rent to pay the interest on the mortgage, so what should I do? Walk away and loose all my hard earned money?

    Some people believe that if you own a couple of properties, you are a well-off landlord, NO I AM NOT. I work hard and struggle to pay my personal bills, just like the next person, so don't have it in for Landlords, it is not fair!!!

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  • Renting is the new ownership

    Posted By: Tom Yom Date: Monday March 12, 2012 @02:54PM

    We are reluctant landlords, we couldn't justify the mortgage for a house bought in the boom so we are renting that house out at a manageable loss. You wont hear any complaints from us, we don't blame anyone else for our situation. We now rent a cheaper house closer to work and family. I must say its quite refreshing to be a tenant, if we don't like an area we can move, if something breaks I call the landlord, if the house is cold we move, if landlord is ignoring us we move. If I have to change job, or decide to have kids, guess what? we can move.Yes, moving is a pain, but much rather that than worrying about finding money to pay mortgage, repairs, commuting and bills. We prefer nice comfortable warm houses and we take good care of them and in all cases have fairly good terms with owners/agents. We are in our third house in four years, and now live somewhere that we are relatively happy with. I know for a fact that the rent we are paying now comes nowhere near paying the mortgage owed on the house. I don't see the point in owning property any more renting is the new ownership. There are other couples like us out there we know of, they cant sell to move so they are renting somwhere else and becoming reluctant landlords. We get on with it.
    Tom

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  • House prices will rise

    Posted By: vincent Date: Thursday March 22, 2012 @02:15PM

    House prices will rise in the next 5 years - that's for certain. Demand is there - either investors from oversea will see the yield value and buy for letting or banks will start lending to high net equity investors.

    Does it make sense that prices in Olso/London/ Paris and Frankfurt are new €5000 to €6500 per m² and in Dublin we are looking at €2,500. Of course Ireland will aligned with internal norms over time. It the same morons that predicted house prices would not crash are now in denial about house price rises . Demand X no new stock = price increases . This is the golden oppertunity , you will look back in 2 years and regret if you do not buy.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Jon Date: Thursday March 22, 2012 @09:36PM

    Vincent ,

    I would agree that property is nearing the bottom , its marginal when to call it. yields in london are about 4 to 5% .. Dublin easy to get 7 to 8 % now .. all investors are looking at autions ect , and pent up demand will be released soon.

    Banks will lead to high LTV people with good employers .... banks only make money from leading... once the market gets trackton I would expect prices to rise girst in Dublin and at 10 to 15% per annum for the first two years ,,,, then stop and do a classic retracement and move forward at more moderate levels .. by the the way i am a property professional RICS .... don't fool yourself ,,, the top and the bottom of the market is where all the money is to be made .. i am selling some london property to invest in dublin at the moment

    Regards
    Jon

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Fred Date: Friday March 23, 2012 @11:06AM

    Agreed, if you can get the cash, now is the time to buy in Dublin. There will always be the highest paid jobs in Dublin.
    I think the countryside is never going to recover. Bad employment prospects=low salary=small mortgages=cheap houses.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Jim McMahon Date: Friday March 23, 2012 @03:17PM

    Your right the money is to be made at the top ( sell) and bottom(buy) of the market ..prices will rise .. I would be of the opinion we are at the bottom .. what I mean is if your looking at something for €250K bid €200K and pay €210K. Deal hard in two years the property will be worth €300K.

    Banks will lend again otherwise how do the make money to pay depositors ? a bank that does not lead is like a butcher not selling meat.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Mick Date: Friday March 23, 2012 @06:15PM

    All indicators are saying that we are not near the bottom. The banks wont lend because they dont have the money. You guys are delusional.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Dave Dunne Date: Monday March 26, 2012 @05:20PM

    None one can see the top or the bottom of a market in reality ... but i bet its near the bottom ... there is so much histerical comment and reports at the moment but rents have remained at 2009 levels which are a lead indicator that demand is there for property and deferred purchases in the pipeline.


    Ireland may get what it needs and that is a higher percentage of life long renters ... but don't be silly ..money will follow margin and anyone can make money by buying now and renting.. this was not the case in 2007/8.

    Regards

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  • Prices will rise

    Posted By: James C Date: Friday March 23, 2012 @07:06PM

    Glad someone is making sence.

    Banks need to lend to create margin, they also need house prices to get out of negative equity so that repossions make sence , you will notice over the next year that lending will increase..... thats a insiders view...


    If banks were to continue not to lend they will go bust and have no asset value to reposses.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: A little common sense Date: Monday March 26, 2012 @02:55PM

    What we have in these comments are a lot of severed heads in a basket all discussing how this new guillotine contraption would never work.

    The banks are letting staff go and have effectively ceased trading, most Irish banks are in receivership, that’s the whole purpose of N.A.M.A whatever neat presentation was given at the launch or how shiny the press pack might have been.
    Irish banks held a disproportionate amount of debt for the world-wide property crash, they had on deposit a fraction of the amount to cover those debts, on the other hand we had the bank of Scotland Ireland with it’s exposure to Irish property debt who came out and washed their hands saying honestly they would just wind up their business in ireland.
    The Landlords on the site had plenty of time to sell within the first 2 years of the crash, it would have lost them 25-35% ( 75,000 to 100,000 euro on average)of the value of the property, the choice they made was a business decision, the alternative wasn’t a palatable option, they didn’t enter the market because of their belief life or the market should be fair. The whole point was to take advantage of the huge demand for property, effectively bleeding someone else for exorbitant rent because they couldn’t afford a mortgage, inexperienced buy to let landlords viewed it as a type of cyclical injustice as they had to pay the same usury rates when they started out. They should have cut their losses but they want the ordinary Irish tax payer to pay for their mistakes, rationalising if it was done for major developers, why not for them, they don’t care about what kind of austerity that means for the majority as long as 100,000 to 200,000 don’t have to pay their investment debts.
    It was an obvious bubble but no one cared, those losing money now made poor financial decisions based on bad advice, which continues today from insider comments, where the contributors think demand will come from in the next 3 years with a world-wide recession and mass emigration is a mystery , I can only assume the insider has some information about alien invasion.
    Norway is the largest exporter of oil and gas outside the middle east , Oslo’s prices rise at the same rate as oil. Frankfurt has a population of over 2.3 million and is the most expensive city in a country that’s the second largest exporter in the world. Paris is the capital for a country of 65 million people, tourism alone justifies their rates. London is a world-wide financial centre with a population of close to 8 million.
    Dublin has no oil or gas, no manufacturing base, a discredited financial centre and is a poorly planned and serviced capital with limited transport systems. Therefore why would a foreign investor buy a property in Ireland where there is no demand and no concentration of populace to support demand. Intelligent investors want a secure return and a profit on their investment not empty property porn, any of the capitals listed above will deliver that except Dublin. Every country in the world is chasing the smart economy.

    Anyone listing a property at 200,000 to 300,000 is fooling themselves, another report today confirms prices continue to decrease at even faster rates, the average property now is valued at 100,000 euro, the banks are preparing to downsize and consolidate, there will be no new mortgage bubble and couldn't be in worldwide recession, they simply have no money to loan. Landlords can lose 200,000 now or 250,000 later and every penny matters when you have to pay it back, the banks can't afford not to chase these debts and despite relatively high representation on this site, investment property owners are a minority.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Jim McMahon Date: Monday March 26, 2012 @04:43PM

    You would think Ireland was a third world country , get a grip Dublin has got a first class brewey due for upgrade development, Intel is getting a €2BN upgrade. We continue to have a trade surplus and agriculture is for the first time in 20 years profitable ... your seeing too much downside.
    "another report today confirms prices continue to decrease at even faster rates" Another load of nonesence - there is no data to subtantiate any report the ask any estate agent " nothing is moving" buyers and sellers are siting this one out.

    Have a look at who's buying at auction its only cash from overseas , the clever investor looking at yield , buy a flat at 100K rent at 600 a month and make 7.2% yield easy ... what bank or pension is offering that return ?

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: A little common sense Date: Monday March 26, 2012 @11:01PM

    I was trying to bring some sanity to the argument put forward by most of the landlords on this site comparing Dublin to the most expensive capitals of the world to justify their rents and the returns they expect from those rents. I never compared Dublin to Mogadishu, I just made a logical argument as to why it is unrealistic to compare rents in Dublin to rents in other major European capitals, it should be obvious why Dublin rents shouldn’t be anywhere near London rents without a reply descending into jingoistic statements like:
    “ London might be the financial centre of the world but we have a brewery, wahey”
    Multinational investment is good news but for a balanced analysis you have to consider the number of bank employees about to lose relatively well paid jobs, is that 2000 or 2500 weekly pay-checks that once were jobs for life now lost to the economy, we don’t know yet .
    Agriculture making it’s first profit in twenty years should speak for itself, the average wage earned by most farmers has plummeted in that time. I don’t think I’ve ever seen more land and sites for sale in rural areas.
    As for the statement “nothing is moving” everyone is sitting it out, followed by foreign investors are buying at 70% discounts at auction borders on schizophrenic. A product you can’t sell is worthless, the market value of property is selling at 70% off peak prices, that is it’s value!
    The original Allsop auctions were selling to Irish people with cash, on paper to the foreign investor the purchase would return dependable sustainable yields in their country of origin, but they don’t factor a demographic exodus to Australia or Irish rejection of long term apartment living. Irish people don’t raise families in apartments in general because Landlords never maintain them and tenants have no rights under Irish law.
    Apart from the fact no one can get a job the reason people are emigrating is exactly because landlords are still charging this level of rent even after a property collapse, if you are lucky enough to earn the minimum wage 600 euro of your 1461.85 a month is on rent, leaving you with 215 euro a week to live on, close to what you’d get on the dole so what’s the point of living and working in Ireland. Would reducing the dole pushing people into further poverty result in (a) more emigration, and more empty flats and houses or (b) reflate an unsustainable credit bubble to suit Landlord’s financial expectation of 7% yields during a world-wide recession.
    Would you work for 40 hours a week just to pay someone else’s mortgage, if you answer honestly you’ll revisit your belief in 7 % yields, the banks don’t offer those rates because they are simply not sustainable. Economic conditions will force people to look for cheaper rents, every Landlord on this site knows tenants are no longer passive cash cows to be milked. If Dubliners do adopt apartment living why rent for 600 a month when by 2013 you will be able to buy an apartment for 60,000 euro.
    The only thing landlords have collectively achieved since 2007 is slaughtering the geese that laid golden eggs forcing even greater emigration. Rent should be 25% of your income in Ireland it’s almost double that, if people are unwilling or unable to pay they can vote with their feet and they have done in their thousands. Only 40% of properties have mortgages and there are only 100,000 to 200,000 investment properties, if you have 50,000 people emigrating every year since 2008 it means those properties can be left empty from the end of 2012 onwards , the rest of the market will just continue on at 70% off peak prices in both sales and rents, It may be blindingly simplistic but if you’re not emotionally invested you accept demand dictates the value of any product.
    That’s what Irish buyers are waiting for and that’s why tenants are still paying high rents in Dublin, they don’t want to get burned on a property market in freefall. 600 euro in your pocket today means nothing in your pocket tomorrow and negative equity on your purchase after a years ownership.
    All the evidence available points to greater austerity, more emigration, more unemployment, the banking industry’s implosion, a 70 billion euro debt to pay and continuing world-wide recession, you offer in balance a brewery refit, a couple of multinationals some of whom like google can relocate in a week like dell and an industry that’s been unprofitable for 20 years finally makes a profit. I think you take optimism to a whole new level.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Jim McMahon Date: Tuesday March 27, 2012 @11:02AM

    I can't agree with you , lets look at the numbers the IMF figures for earnings per capita as abtracted below for 2011 ; these number are in US$ ; does it make sence to conclude the irish will have the lowest priced property in europe . we are some US$9000 above the UK per capita

    14 Ireland 48,517
    15 United States 48,147
    16 Belgium 48,110
    17 Kuwait 46,461
    18 Japan 45,774
    19 Germany 44,558
    20 France 44,401
    21 Iceland 43,226
    22 United Kingdom 39,604

    Alright , take London , Greater London , Harrow , a 1920's 1 bed costs average £180K a three bed average house cost £400K , have you ever been to Harrow , at best its like Mulligar on a bad day with a 30min commute to London Central,

    "Common sence", your talking like a Dublin Taxi Driver explaining the flat earth theory , this property cycle has overdipped on the negative , just like on the peak not many have the vision to grasp the oppertunity ...buy and reap the rewards ... €60K will get you a farm building with no roof in leitrim. best of look
    don't ask for an extension to the farm building because that we cost you €100K - (unless the builders do it for free)

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Common sense Date: Tuesday March 27, 2012 @06:22PM

    That’s right Jim the IMF have never been wrong, they were calling Ireland a model economy to be copied throughout a credit bubble boom and they now demand greater austerity and higher taxes, that will really help the domestic economy. The only statement you’ve left out is the famous “ the fundamentals are sound” cliché. Twenty-five percent was the maximum drop parroted in 2007, the simple answer is I’ll be back on this site in 2013 with plenty of examples of apartments throughout Dublin for 60,000 euro asking price.

    You ‘re grasping at straws, pick any story from the paper from a selection about property today and they’ll list the reasons property is in freefall, I don’t need to fall back on selective minutia, I can see the empty shops and premises and I’ve been looking at the same unsold properties on daft for 6 years.

    This is a cul de sac of minutia and semantics but I have to point out the blindingly obvious that wealth isn’t equally distributed in Ireland making your income per capita argument meaningless, boiled down we have one section of society with no mortgage on their home living off a productive consumerist section who carry the weight of debt ,stealth taxes and exorbitant rent or mortgages.

    “Per capita income has several weaknesses as a measurement of prosperity:

    • As it is a mean value, it does not reflect income distribution. If the distribution of income within a country is skewed, a small wealthy class can increase per capita income far above that of the majority of the population
    • Comparisons of per capita income over time need to take into account changes in prices. Without using measures of income adjusted for inflation, they will tend to overstate the effects of economic growth.
    • International comparisons can be distorted by differences in the costs of living between countries that aren't reflected in exchange rates. Where the objective of the comparison is to look at differences in living standards between countries, using a measure of per capita income adjusted for differences in purchasing power parity more accurately reflects the differences in what people are actually able to buy”

    There are properties selling but at the upper end of the market and for about the same asking price as the empty box flats in Dublin city centre.
    Like most bad gamblers with a “system” you’ll continue betting until you’ve lost your very last chip, I know I’m not going to convince you, my concern is for the wider domestic economy , residential and commercial rents in Ireland make most SME's uncompetitive while landlords drawout their collective delusion. Residential rents feed into wage demands, I pointed out why offering a minimum wage is pointless to an employee in Ireland, it won’t cover their rent and transport expenses.
    In many cases these rents are substitutes for pensions and the reason the Landlord refuses to see reality is because the rent he receives is his weekly wage, it’s not a business decision based on the market it’s a personal valuation of the work he’s done for 40 years. The problem with this mindset is unrealistic rents are draining cash from the domestic economy, which creates a cyclical problem closing businesses and increasing unemployment which in turn reduces the number of tenants able to pay high rents and taxes to repay debts.
    Within 2 years of the crash in 2007 this should have been resolved by the market and the economy should have stabilised at a much lower level, but returning to moderate growth, the problem is we have an asset class made up of a demographic of people who until the property tax have had no pressure to change as the market demands and are largely insulated from the wider economy ( i.e. retired, playing golf).
    It’s an anecdotal point but it’s all I hear, preparations for emigration and why!

    Most of my friends work in multinationals, they are employed through third party employment agencies so the multinationals can avoid employee benefits, one of the largest in the world paid minimal increases after record profits in it’s sector and in that company, it had already reduced pay in line with comparable employment in Ireland. They are paid very well and when they have to they move with the company they have to be pragmatic about negative equity. They were bled by rents, then gouged by mortgages and now savings are paying their negative equity, these are the high earners who after twenty years of employment have nothing to show for it, once my generation emigrate they’ll never come back . It doesn’t matter what they tell granny and granddad, there is no way they’ll come back to Ireland to pay Anglo’s 70 billion debt or some government cronies water charges. That leaves a lot of abandoned houses in Ireland while they chase employment in Britain and Australia.

    I’ve been to Leitrim Jim and I’ve seen the future empty estates filled with empty houses as far as the eye can see, you should get out more and see the ghost estates, then look at the slums those on rent allowance live in for 390 euro a month. There are plenty of box room apartment complexes in Dublin waiting to be demolished for health and safety reasons at the owners expense, there was a lot of rubbish built during the boom.

    I’m very optimistic for my future and I’m grateful to you Jim and your generation , if it wasn’t for guys like you who make terrible decisions that get in over their head there would be no distressed property auctions , we haven’t really started with repossessions yet and that will push the 70% off peak prices to 90% off peak. The only other cliche you haven't offered yet is the banks will never repossess in Ireland for historical reasons.

    My concern is Ireland is already looking like the abandoned manufacturing cities in America, decayed , derelict and my personal hate graffiti everywhere, there’s no point owning a house in a war zone.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: John Date: Monday March 26, 2012 @10:05PM

    Because of wage reductions and rents ireland now is becoming one of the most compeditive countries in europe with backing from the US in pharma and IT... why is google here ...we have the best corporation tax ...this county get off your knees ... the comebacks coming ...

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: common sense Date: Wednesday April 4, 2012 @02:25PM

    the top end of the market always shows the way and the most expensive apartments in Dublin city entre are showing drops in asking price from the boom of 86%, the rest will follow after owners have burned good money after bad.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/knockdown-4m-dublin-city-centre-penthouse-now-on-sale-with-86pc-discount-at-575k-3070132.html?start=5

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Raymond Date: Saturday March 24, 2012 @01:47AM

    I have a question I own a house in Ireland and rent it for 580 euros a month . My mortgage is 1000 a month. I do not live in the country and I just can't afford paying the extra money every month. I would love to hand the keys back to the bank because I can't keep going What should I do The bank won't talk to me because it's an investment property Any ideas

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Ashley Morgan Date: Monday March 26, 2012 @04:44PM

    I would be interested in doing a deal on this - option lease ? if your interested.

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: John Date: Sunday March 25, 2012 @09:27PM

    Just remember the proporty decline is not only a i rish issue , this is a gobal problem , when the gobal economy improves all else will follow

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Mid Range view Date: Tuesday March 27, 2012 @02:44PM

    I think we all need to have a moderate view of the highs and lows of a markets - everything overshoots on the up and on the down. When a stampede starts its the first Steer that gets the fright the rest just follow , ask any Cowboy !! . This is a Stampede , no one knows quite why they are running but they are .

    Sell on when others are greedy , buy when all are fearfull...." Warren Buffet".

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: frank Date: Tuesday March 27, 2012 @08:30PM

    Your spot on ... the headless chickens are loose in all directions.. keep calm and carry on ...

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  • recovery

    Posted By: corrigan Date: Wednesday March 28, 2012 @03:12PM

    The first and most important thing about Ireland is that it is swiftly restoring its competitive edge. ….The second element is that Ireland’s net public debt will probably peak at somewhere around 110 per cent of GDP. This is a steep challenge; but it is a magnitude that Ireland, among other advanced countries, has shown to be entirely scalable in the past. It is increasingly clear, too, thatIreland does not need to borrow from markets until 2014: that is the sort of borrower that markets can relearn to love.

    The third issue is Ireland’s banking saga....But today there is a growing recognition that this corner has been turned. ...As a result of all this growth is starting to re-emerge, even though domestic demand is still contracting....Perhaps most important of all, an Irish success story of the kind we think is underway will come to be seen as a precious and crucial trump card for the eurozone debt strategy

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  • Re: The Daft Rental Report Q4 2011

    Posted By: Just wondering Date: Tuesday April 10, 2012 @08:31PM

    I've read the comments above and am really wondering how we went from discussing rent supplement to the bankers again. while this topic makes an interesting discussion point there is real hardship behind these figures.
    People through no fault of their own are unemployed, without savings and with very little hope of any work in the near future. They are now on social welfare at a time of their life they had hoped to be close to being comfortable, kids reared etc.
    The Minister has reduced rent supplement basing it on the daft report on average rental. This report shows the rental in Monaghan for a 1 bedroom 'unit' to be €360. The Minister has set the rate for a single person as €300. Maybe they are not supposed to have the bedroom?
    The reality on the ground is that Landlords who own these houses have payments to make and cannot reduce rents. This leaves those on the lowest income faced with homelessness or living on a reduction of 16% of their income. In one case I know of this adds up to €111 a week to pay for food, heat, clothes and anything else. i challange any one of you to actually try this.
    If the rules were to be followed as they should be then rent supplement would not be given to anyone renting a property above the guidline rate. But of course this will never happen as the private rental market would disappear and the lack of social housing would be an issue again.
    while successive Governments continue to use the private sector for social housing they really should be very careful of the cost of those properties to the private sector.
    This is the classic chicken and egg sceneario.

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